Forced to share a seat with a 450 pound man.
 

On a recent flight to Hawaii while boarding we saw that the aisle seat was occupied by a huge man weighing approximately 450 pounds. The armrest for one of our seats was actually behind this man's back. I immediately made eye contact with the stewardess who rolled her eyes and shrugged. When my husband tried to talk to her she told him to take his seat and that the plane was full. This was a six hour flight and the man was pressed against my husbands body for the entire flight. I told another stewardess how uncomfortable my husband was and asked if she could do anything and she said no. I think there was a seat open in first class but she would not move him. It was horrible. The staff said my only recourse was to contact Delta.com. and that the man should have purchased two seats. I am so frustrated. Customer service has been non existent and there is no way to talk to an actual human being. I will never fly Delta again. What a horrible airline.

Mail a compaint to the DOT, cc Delta
 

Those bearing the "Airline Sympathizer," "Airline Employee," etc. label here may possibly disagree with this post and argue an airline has a legal right to provide only a half, to three-quarters, of a seat.

Regardless of what Delta, the "Sympathizers," and other airlines may say most Small Claims Courts will agree with the argument that Delta, in this case, had an obligation to provide a FULL seat. Unfortunately, if the only witnesses you have is yourself and your husband proving your case may be an uphill battle at best. At a minimum you should mail a complaint to the Aviation Consumer section of the US Dept. of Transportation. Mail a "carbon copy" of said complaint to Delta Air.

In the event you DO have some evidence, beyond yourself and your husband's testimony, such as pictures, or signed statements of other passengers, then a Small Claims action may be worth a shot. Delta "mainline" (non-commuter) aircraft should serve, at least, one airport in your home state. In the event you obtained a judgment in your favor, and Delta refuses to pay, there would be assets (cash, equipment, etc.) you could have seized to satisfy the judgment.

Whether you have an option to leave the aircraft, prior to the doors being closed, and not suffer the loss of the value of your ticket, remains to be seen. A former airline employee on here suggests that IS an option. On the other hand I fail to see how, under such a circumstance, it can be said that one is NOT at the mercy of a gate agent and is left with little to no recourse if the gate agent refuses to cooperate. It would be interesting to see what kind of answer, if any, one would get if this question (leaving the aircraft prior to departure) were posed, in writing, to Delta or any other airline.

In Delta's eyes you are supposed to consider yourself extremely lucky in the event you are offered, or given, what I consider to be worthless travel vouchers.

This is an all too common occurence that affects all airlines, not just Delta. the fact that your husband was the odd man out this time around, well there's little to not much else you can do. The thing is this is a touchy subject, because obese people are allowed to fly whether we like it or not, they are in fact still human beings. Some airlines make people of size purchase two seats, but in this case, we don't know when this guy bought his ticket and if he bought it at the time when seats were limited. Maybe it was a last minute ticket for the big guy, maybe he tried to buy two tickets but was told no dice. Maybe he knew his size would inconvenience others and requested to move to first but was told he could not. You see what i'm getting at? And about the first class seat, since you said "you think there was a first class seat", doesn't mean there was one since you also stated the flight was full. Best Delta will do is probably give you a voucher, but there's really nothing the airlines can do about it.

I don't see this as a case of bad customer service; this is merely the case of being the odd man out, like sitting next to a crying baby or someone's emotional pet. Been there in all three cases and its never pleasant, you simply need an mp3 player full of your favorite tunes and immerse yourself in your world while staying out of theirs.

My mother is an obese person so I have sympathy with the condition of obesity. I have no issue with obese people, I just don't want obese strangers pressed against me for 6 hours on a plane. The response I got online was that the man should have been identified by the flight crew and told he had to purchase another seat. By the way, the man's wife, who was approximately the size of my mother (300 pounds) sat on an aisle seat in another row. May you sit between them happily listening to your ipod on your next flight.

This would be Delta screwing up. Again.

He should have been identified as needing a second seat at check-in or boarding by the CSA's.

Most airlines have an "armrest rule." If the person cannot fit in the seat with both armrests fully down then they should be required to purchase two seats. Furthermore, it's not the flight attendant's job to enforce this. Grpmit is absolutely correct that the issue should have been dealt with bu a ticket or gate agent before the man was even allowed to board the plane. I remember an episode of "Airline" where there was some doubt if a passenger would fit in the seat and be able to lower both armrests. The CSA lead escorted the passenger onto the plane before anyone else boarded and indeed he did fit (barely) and was not required to purchase an additional seat. Also if the flight isn't completely booked and the person of size can be accommodated with an empty seat next to him then the additional seat purchase isn't required either but with capacity cuts and fuller planes this probably isn't an option all of the time.

I mentioned before that it isn't the flight attendant's responsibility. For future reference if one finds themselves seated next to someone who is spilling over into your seat take the following steps. Politely excuse yourself and get up and head towards the rear of the airplane. (Feign needing to use the lav or a glass of water for a motion sickness pill.) Politely ask the flight attendant in the rear galley to summon a gate agent. If they refuse, tell him or her the situation and ask again to see a gate agent about the issue. If they refuse to call an agent then ask if you could go back up the jetway to speak with one. If all else fails then demand to speak with the captain or first officer.

Once your issue is addressed if they won't re-seat you, or the person of size (POS), or don't require the POS to buy a second seat (or there isn't one to sell) then ask if you can be accommodated in another cabin (business and/or first class) or, if you have some flexibility with your travel time, on a later flight.

Thanks everyone. At least I will know what to do if this should happen again. I did think about taking a photo but did not want to embarrass the man. Delta has now offered two vouchers for 75 dollars, one in each of our names, which is about what it cost to transport our lugguge.

This is not about the obesity of the passenger, this is about the failure of Delta to address their customer's needs. The Gate Agent failed, but so did the Flight Attendant. It is ridiculous to suggest that it is not the flight attendants duty to attend to this. If the person is encroaching so significantly into the seat of the next passenger I consider that to be an unsafe condition. This could create problems for the passenger in terms of DVT as they would have such restricted movement. If there was a seat available, even if it was in a higher class, the FA should have used her discretion to upgrade the passenger. It is pathetic that FA will exercise their power to exclude and humiliate passengers, but not to benefit a passenger. The passenger is entitled to expect his seat is not encroached. The SouthWest approach is the most sensible. If the armrest cannot be put down, then two seats must be purchased. That is objective, fair and doesn't humiliate either the obese passenger or the poor passenger who has to sit next to them. I am pretty porky myself, so I know of what I speak.

While aircraft is at the gate with the boarding door open it is absolutely the gate agents' responsibility. The FA's will not re-seat anyone because they do not yet have the manifest and have no idea how many have yet to board and which seats, if any, will be vacant or if seats have been intentionally left vacant for wight and balance. Of course if the matter is brought to a FA's attention they should call to get a gate agent involved. If they forget or refuse to do so you should escalate to the FA in charge and/or request to speak to the captain or FO.

Another thing that I did not mention is that we were in the last group of passengers to board and there were two passengers that were being told that they could upgrade to first class as we boarded. I asked the woman who had upgraded to first class at the end of the flight if there had been open seats in first class and she said she thought that there was one. I was so furious during the flight that I did not want to check because it would have only made the situation worse if there had been a seat available there. I think they were trying to fill every space possible and were so overwhelmed with that and therefore did not respond to our situation.

Photographic evidence
 

I did think about taking a photo but did not want to embarrass the man.

There's no need to take a pic showing the face of the obese passenger. The Small Claims Court would only be interested in to what degree did he intrude upon your seat. So, accordingly, the pic should, in effect, be a close-up of the seat cushion area.

Beware of the possibility the flight attendants might try to make an issue of your photographing the seat cushion. Some months ago there was a woman who used a cell phone to video a fight (or shouting match) on a Jet Blue flight to Las Vegas. The flight attendant asked the woman to delete the video. When she refused he had her arrested. Since the video has found its way onto You Tube I shall assume the Las Vegas/McCarran Airport Police did not try to confiscate the video. The moral: If you take a pic in-flight, and you're lucky enough to be on a flight with wi fi, get that pic onto some server as fast as you can. Otherwise, try to hide the "card," or give it to a friend.

Because maybe, just maybe, deep down you know what the right thing here is. I will admit that it certainly wouldn't be desirable to seated next to a person who spills over into my seat. That said, dealing with people of large girth is very delicate. How does an airline employee (making peanuts and probably not caring because they don't actually work for said airline) deal with this? The gate agent can't see how they flow into another seat cuz they are busy at the gate. The flight attendant most likely will dwarf the passenger in question so she ain't gonna help. It's just an all-around bad situation that will end with someone being upset. Unfortunately, it was the OP. I guess, take the compensation, move on and hope that when you fly WN, it won't happen to you then cuz you can choose your own seats. Oh yeah, they don't fly to Hawaii.
Seriously, from a former gate agent's POV, my apologies for having to put up with all that went with that 5 1/2 hour flight from Seattle. It was probably pretty crappy. Hopefully, the trip back was better and future trips will not include someone taking 1/2 your seat.

Sorry Troy but that is just not good enough. Southwest has a perfectly reasonable criteria for this, (armrest can go fully down) and the airline could have a print out which explains their policy which could be handed to the obese passenger. This would de-personalise the issue and make it less difficult for the staff to explain the process. This would allow it to be dealt with at the check in desk.

This is only an issue on completely full flights. In flights with some empty seats (the vast majority), it can be resolved simply by leaving the middle seat for the obese passenger vacant. However, when a passenger is faced with this problem, the FA, and Gate Agent have a responsibility to help and their failure to do so, even if they are paid "peanuts" or don't work directly for the airline is not a reason for not doing so.

Not to take the light off the OP but let's look at Southwest's policy, according to the tv show. The guy they brought down fit in the seat, per the CSA, they fit. That is degrading and humliating for that passenger and rightfully, because there ended up being no issue, has a complaint with the airline. If each "large" passenger was made to test check their seat first, that could lead to huge (pardon the pun) issues when boarding an aircraft, especially in the (mid) U.S. We might need a lawyer at every gate. I'm gonna go on record as saying there is no good solution. Hard to tell a person to buy another seat at boarding time and hard to tell a person sitting next to a large person that there is nothing they can do about it. So, when a flight is full, what would be a good solution? I don't have one.

Yes, but what about the seat itself?
 

So sorry to hear about this uncomfortable experience. One thing that nobody has bothered to mention is the seat size itself. This is another instance where some form or fashion of regulation (yes, that means higher airfares) would be most helpful. I am very tall and find the pitch on most aircraft extremely uncomfortable -- in fact, I don't even fit on several commuter aircraft unless I'm in the exit row. Seats need to be sized more realistically; that means wider and further apart.

AA management did the right thing years ago when it attempted to differentiate with "more room in coach." Unfortunately U.S. airline consumers made it clear - as they always have since deregulation - they couldn't care less about the extra room and that price was the single most important factor. I often wonder if the commodity consumer would be actually willing to travel in the cargo compartment if it meant saving $20 each way. Probably so.

There we go! Wider seats. That's a start. It ain't gonna fly. I can tell you a little story about just the opposite. The airline I worked for (wont say the name but it rhymes with Northwest) configured two 747-200's for exclusive use on NRT-HNL (Tokyo-Honolulu) routes. They were called the beach configuration. 454 passengers. If I remember right, 420 in coach, 34 in business. Normal 747 seated less than 400. They could do it the other way, removing seats for the U.S. sized passenger but that would mean less revenue. Option out the window then.

Did you read my post? I'm advocating governmental regulation of seat size and pitch so that all carriers operating to/from/within the U.S. can compete on the same basis of seating. That may mean lower industry revenue overall, but would not decrease profit margins on a percentage basis after the initial compliance.

There are wider seats - they are called first class. This man knew he was grossly obese, but decided to fly even though he knew by buying only one seat he would intrude on the adjacent seat. Could we say self-centered? The airlines should make clear on-line and elsewhere, that if you exceed the width of the seat, you will pay for an extra seat. Why should everyone else pay for the extra cost of a government mandated wider seat, when the obese person is the problem?

Yeah, I read your post. Now we're gonna have the size of the seat regulated? Oh brother.........where will it end? I know someone will have an answer.
I'll start though......will there be first class, fat a$$ and regular class? Be realistic, making the seats bigger for a minority of the population?
Gate agents have enough to police, they shouldn't have to worry if someone is too fat to fly.

Seat pitch, and "...the right thing..."
 

Now we're gonna have the size of the seat regulated?

Yes, but not for people of size. A 31", or less, seat pitch, on a non-stop flight of 3 hours or more, is probably unhealthy. I suspect one could find doctors/medical evidence to support this. Deep vein thrombosis, or "economy class syndrome," has been associated with the issue of seat pitch. As I've said in previous posts rules like this will cause air fares to go up. However, prior to deregulation, those who wanted to travel on the cheap--because they had to, or for other reasons--used Greyhound.

you know what the right thing here is.

If possible, allowing a customer affected by a person of size to leave the aircraft without risking the loss of the value of their ticket or being forced to pay "change" or other fees. If the doors have been closed, then giving the person a CASH refund equal to 50% of the value of the ticket if it's round trip (with the remaining portion still usable), or the full value if it's one-way. If enough tickets had to be refunded, ground staff would be more alert to people of size and, yes, there might be some discrete walks down the jetway.

Obese seat mates, and dealing with a flight attendant
 

For future reference if one finds themselves seated next to someone who is spilling over into your seat take the following steps. Politely excuse yourself and get up and head towards the rear of the airplane. (Feign needing to use the lav or a glass of water for a motion sickness pill.) Politely ask the flight attendant in the rear galley to summon a gate agent. If they refuse, tell him or her the situation and ask again to see a gate agent about the issue. If they refuse to call an agent then ask if you could go back up the jetway to speak with one. If all else fails then demand to speak with the captain or first officer.

Depending on the airline this may be good advice. However, I'd like to see what would happen to the person voicing this type of concern if the airline was American or United.

LOL Butch, would I have been arrested if I did that on United or American? The flight attendant on Delta asked me six times (she actually screamed it the last two) if I wanted a snack because I had decided to ignore her after the lack of service and futility of any resolution. I was a little worried she might take matters further.

All I can say about this is that Americans with Disabilities have managed to have me set up my entire small business, which is a hair salon so that a person in a wheel chair can work there. This means that all electrical outlets had to be raised and all work counters and sinks had to be lowered. Everyone who works in my salon will soon be in a wheel chair because we are tall and have to accommodate an imaginary hairstylist in a wheel chair. I do not see how the airlines should not have a few seats for a POS where they can keep their dignity for the price of say, a third of another seat with seat belt extenders provided.

I'm sure they could, but then again the airlines will have doctors and experts that say the exact opposite. It all comes down to who's "experts" you believe. We know who you would believe, we know who I would believe, lets agree to disagree.


The other thing I have a problem with about this whole "make the seats wider" business is this: A NORMAL, HEALTHY, individual WILL fit in any current airline seat with no problems what-so-ever. I'm not saying they will all be comfortable, or you will have enuf room to stretch out like you're in your lazyboy, but then again, that was not the issue in this complaint. The issue boiled down to sit WIDTH, not pitch, not leg room. Why should the airlines have to suffer losses to revenue so that the rest of the world (particularly the US) can continue to be overweight and unhealthy. Why should airlines, or for that matter, any mass transit system, accommodate the obesity epidemic that plagues this world.

Not to get off point, but that doesn't make sense. Why would you have to set up your ENTIRE business to accommodate a person in a wheelchair? Couldn't you just have one station that is wheelchair accessible instead of ALL of them?

These are the rules in California. If you remodel a business you have to upgrade and meet ADA standards. My brother works in a bar that had to make the area behind the bar wide enough to accommodate a bartender in a wheelchair. Don't even get me started on how you have to configure the bathroom. We can now hold a square dance in there. I am not an advocate of these kind of regulations but the airlines are getting away with murder.

Trying not to be insensitive but where is the line drawn? If the airlines created some seats that were wider for "POS" (I love that) what criteria is used to decide who gets them? And when they aren't all used on a flight, which "normal sized" passengers will get them?

After the POS group, then other groups will want changes made for them. People who are in wheelchairs and are immobile may want only the seats forward in the plane. They may want their wheelchairs to take them all the way to their seats which would mean widening the aisle by taking out seats.

Just a quick story about the wider seats thing....when I worked in Honolulu, at that time we had a seasonal flight non-stop to Minneapolis. It was a 747. The upper-deck was considered economy. These seats are first class sized. I mean international first class. Very nice at the time. This particular day, we had dupe seating upstairs, meaning 2 boarding passes printed with the same seat for 2 seperate people. In the end, there was a fist-fight for this seat.

Again, I don't want to sound like I'm not empathetic or insensitive but where do airlines stop appeasing special groups?

It is not "appeasing" special groups. Society is made up of a whole range of people, tall, short, fat, thin, able bodied, less abled, elderly, babies etc. When you start to pick out one group, you will eventually target them all. There was a poster on this site who recently advocated banning children under 5 from flying, others object to fat people, disabled people, etc.
Airlines provide a public accommodation and should be pragmatic about ensuring that they accommodate as many of the public as possible. Over 30% of the US population is obese or clinically overweight, so this is not a small number. In addition, the overall size of the general population in terms of height and weight (even when in proportion) is considerably bigger than it even was 30 years ago.

The seat width, pitch and the average weight calculations for the passengers need to be revised to account for this. (The FAA has modified these calculations for small aircraft, after the weight of passengers was a factor in an accident in CLT, NC).

There are already accommodations for people with disabilities.. no one is advocating wider aisles to permit wheelchairs. The issue is that the accommodations should be made. Likewise, obese people don't need a special seat. The pragmatic solution is to leave the seat next to them empty if the flight is not full. If the flight is full, require the obese passenger to buy a seat, along the lines of the Southwest policy. As long as this policy if fairly applied (as it is on Southwest), I can see no problem with that. I speak as a fat bloke myself. Gate agents can simply hand the passenger a sheet outlining the policy and requesting that they buy a seat. If necessary they may have to booked on a later flight if no extra seats are available.

On the issue of how it is applied: I recently went to Alton Towers (a theme park in the UK). The issue of whether obese people can fit into the seats for the big thrill rides is obviously a problem for them too. It is resolved by them having example seats dotted around the park. People can try out the seat and see if they are able to lock the clasp before going into the queue. This was not humiliating..as lots of people tried the seat, whether they were fat or not. What is to stop airports having a standard row in the terminal which people can try out and see if the armrest comes down. This is an objective and fair measure and I cannot see what the objection to that is. It can only work if it is uniformly applied by all. For that, I think we need rule making by the DOT, similar to how they handle disability rule making.

There are usually common sense solutions to these problems, but this is interfered with by people who spend their whole life being angry at things. The posters on here who write things like "why should we do this or that" for fat people, disabled people, etc, are very short-sighted. There but for the grace of god...

Good ideas. I'd love it if the government was the decider of who's too fat for one seat. Takes all the blame off the airline.

The idea of test seats located throughout the airport is a good idea. No reason why this couldn't be done. If I still worked at airline, I would definitely bring this idea forward.

The governement is not at the gate, the airline is.

Many Passenger's of size (POS) claim that their obesity is a disability. As such, under our disability rule, those passengers can be charged for a second seat since the rule specifically states: as a carrier "You are not required to furnish more than one seat per ticket or to provide a seat in a class of service other than the one the passenger has purchased" [14 CFR 382.87(f)]

Now I know that charging for second seat is not the issue, but it raises the question - can a the passenger who is being squeezed bring a complaint of a violation under Part 382 when the carrier chooses not to force the POS to purchase a second seat.

As Jim stated earlier, the FAA does need to modifiy the minimum seat width and pitch to accomodate the "growing" population.

I'm aware the government is not at the gate. The proposal by Jim, unless I misunderstood it, is that the government regulate the size of a person that is required to purchase a second seat. That takes the decision off the airline then. Correct me if I misunderstood what he said.

I missed the "rule making by DOT" in Jim's post.

Considering all the flack we got (and still get) in regards to the previously citeed section, that is not going to happen in the immediate future.

But the simpe rule of thumb should be... If you can not sit in the seat facing forward with the armrest down, you need 2 seats. Plain and simple. No need for a flight attendant or gate agent to make a subjective, and often wrong, decision.

It seems like a good idea (like the carry-on baggage sizer) but may not be practical for every airline. Most airlines have fleets comprised of many different aircraft types of varying age. For those airlines there is no such thing as a "standard economy" seat. Yes the width variance may be very slight however one may test themselves in the "person sizer" at the airport and barely fit only to find they are flying on an aircraft with a slightly narrower seat and cannot lower the armrest. For airlines like Southwest and JetBlue this wouldn't be a problem since the seats in their fleets are all the same but an airline like Delta or American with both Airbus and Boeing aircraft, some of which are 20+ years old, it would be a mistake to place a "person sizer" at the airport as a representation o a "typical" economy seat.

What about height?
 

What really blows my mind about the debate in this thread is that everyone's talking about girth but not at all height.

Your ignorance is astounding and offensive. I am well over 6'4" and I literally will NOT fit in the standard seat of an E145 and several other commuter aircraft. In fact, on the few occasions when I have flown those aircraft the FA has had to ask an exit row passenger to switch seats with me. When seated in a standard economy seat on most larger aircraft my knees are literally crammed into the tray table of the seat in front of me for the duration of the flight. My employment options are even limited because I must demand business class on long-haul international flights to ensure that I'll have proper legroom.

At minimum, exit rows should be reserved for people over a certain height. No matter how much weight I lose or gain, there's nothing I can ever do about how long my legs are. Frankly, I don't understand why this hasn't been more of an industry topic than the POS issues.

Actually some of the newer seats being installed on some airlines (Continental and Delta both come to mind) are taking that into consideration. Although the seat pitch is unchanged the new seats are thinner and the seat cushion actually slides forward slightly when the seat is reclined. (Much like a Barclonger or Laz-E-Boy recliner) The thinner seat and the forward motion actually create a bit (albeit a tiny bit) more legroom. I know it doesn't solve your issue with the regional jets (even I at just over 5'10" feel cramped in those seats) and may not even help too much on mainline aircraft but it is a slight improvement.

A rare agreement with AADFW. I'm 6'7", and this isn't considered a disability for ADA compliance. It's genetic, so I suppose it falls into other discrimination areas, like race.

I don't have much sympathy with those that a good diet, exercise, medical attention, or surgery couldn't fix.

I would really like the answer to that question. The gate is supposedly the entity responsible for identifying the passenger and enforcing what ever policy Delta may have. You would have to blind not to realize this man's weight was going to be an issue. Instead of continuing to fill seats by upgrading other passengers (and filling their seats) they could have dealt with the issue but they chose to ignore it and forced us to give up part of the seat we paid for.

You hit the nail on the head, most gate agents will ignore the issue and hopes it goes away, or becomes someone else's problem. Granted that there are some agents who will take the initiative and charge the passenger for 2 seats but then the agent becomes the nasty unsympathetic airline nazi when the complaint letter is written.

As for the answer to the question I raised earlier... That is above my pay grade.

The recline issue
 

the new seats are thinner and the seat cushion actually slides forward slightly when the seat is reclined

The late great National Airlines (Miami) was the last airline I can remember having something like this. The recline, into the face of the person behind you, was very limited. Yet, your body still felt the sensation of a conventional recline. With the complaints about people having their laptops trashed I'm surprised more airlines don't use this. I'll assume cost is the issue--either the seats themselves, and/or the cost of re-fitting existing aircraft.

For those who feel the need to point it out: This type of seating was NOT fleet-wide with National. Their DC-10s were one exception.

Cost is an issue however the newer seats are made of more lightweight composite materials. They may be more expensive initially but over time actually save money. Less weight means less fuel burned per flight. The initial cost of seat replacement does, however, need to be budgeted and scheduled to coincide with each aircraft's heavy check. It's during those checks that the plane is essentially stripped and re-built from the inside out. Another cost of doing business that the average traveler doesn't think about.

New aircraft are being delivered with these seats already installed. In some cases an older aircraft may never get the new seats because it's nearing the end of it's useful life cycle as a passenger aircraft.